Feedback on Roger and Cynthia

Yep, and I saw that movie when it was released. I thought of it too, when I came across my first NiS story. Also in the 70s there was a figure named Paul Bindrim who conducted so-called naked encounters, group psychotherapy therapy sessions. There were other organized naked group activities written about in the press, mainly taking place in California (of course) and social nudity was off and running in this country. Then the AIDS epidemic began...

Thanks! Did you find the third story, "Exported Rebellion"? It continues the tale of Kevin and Denise and the Avery-Denison program. Hope you find that enjoyable too. I have a fourth one in the works also. It's about 2/3 complete.

Enjoy your reading.

I'm a grammar "nazi" as well but also a realist. NO TEENAGER I've ever heard speaks with perfect, University of Chicago Stylebook grammar and I've heard many thousands throughout my career. When I write, I try for realism in all characters' dialog and I tailor the grammatical usage to the speaker. When teens speak, they all use teen vernacular no matter how educated or sophisticated they may be, whether the situation is formal OR informal. I hope you aren't bothered by what linguists call "non-standard" grammar when you watch tv or cinema. Well, fiction writing is essentially crafting a movie in words.

I'm associated with a major university, one of the largest in the world, which has a top-rated school of education and my entire community is populated by many highly educated people. But when my kids were in elementary and middle school (let alone high school), their teachers were woefully unprepared in using basic English grammar, as evidenced by their conversational speech and by the letters they sent to parents.

So don't assume that the teachers will teach their pupils proper grammar. They weren't doing that twenty plus years ago and they certainly don't now, much to the continued dismay of my university colleagues.

Thanks for your comments; I'm pleased you like my story--and an aside: (whispering) ...if you criticize a writer, you'd have a bit more credence if your communication didn't contain a number of misspelled words... (just sayin')

And since you brought up the matter of 50-million people being wrong, it's those 50 million who are driving the evolution of the language. I suggest you check out this fascinating podcast: [https://www.npr.org/podcasts/381443663/that-s-what-they-say] to see just how this evolution is changing how we speak (and write too). Have fun.

Thanks for the comments.

Actually, the Avery-Denison program is totally unlike the NiS Program. Any nudity is optional on two levels--school and personal. And it's limited to massage in the classroom, according to the curriculum. It's for relationship building, not for sexual demonstrations, groping, exhibitionism, and voyeurism. And can be implemented in only very limited circumstances.

The cameras were solely for the workshop evaluation, so the school and Avery faculty could see how the children responded. Having a committee of a dozen observing in the classroom would have destroyed the testing of the curriculum.

About this story being a small world--come on! Thanks for appreciating my writing but I don't have unlimited time! Writing takes A LOT of time! So the author needs to collapse a lot of activity and plot into tight constructions to keep the main story moving along.

So here's a tight plot construction for the elements you wondered about.

In R&C NiS, the federal officials in CA were convicted of being accessories to kidnaping and murder and were sentenced to 30-life. The contractor employees were convicted of kidnaping; several of second-degree murder in addition (including Cirota). Life sentences for all. The videos were shredded. The attempted rape boys at Merritt were convicted of rape and criminal sexual assault in the first degree and received 20-year sentences. Cynthia and Roger were raised with very high moral standards (so was Kevin and probably Denise too). Although the six main characters remained extremely close they didn't swap partners. I imagine that R and C did discuss what it would be like to make love, but they never shared those conversations with me.

(Actually I did think of some of these elements as plot extensions, including possible alternatives, but going in those directions didn't make sense for the story.)

I greatly appreciate your wanting to know more about the story and the characters. That shows me that I did my job and made the story so realistic for you that you became involved in it and began to care for its characters and their fates. This gives me a real ego boost, so many thanks!

Thanks for the feedback! Actually the FOIA is a VERY weak law. Very, very weak and can be easily bypassed on the flimsiest basis.

Two good questions...

The first question concerns who runs the school, and there are two possibilities. In the first case, the school could be run by the DoD out of their DoD-DEA Americas operation (Defense Education Activity--later on in the story a DoD school will be mentioned in connection with the Program). The DoDDEA has its own commander, separate and independent from the base commander, although the base commander may have a very strong influence over the school's operation. But not total control, and certainly cannot override a school directive coming from the Pentagon.

The second case occurs in this part of the story, where the land the school is on has been "leased" to the local school district; the terms of such leases generally state that the land itself remains government property but the facilities and their operations are totally under civilian control. The only services that the military bases provide in such instances, and then only by pre-arrangement, would be physical security, although this would generally be provided by local law enforcement. However, the base commander could step in to supplement or replace civilian law enforcement with military police, since stateside MPs are also sworn peace officers. However, there are military regulations which cover the use of the military when civilian law enforcement matters arise; if you're interested, check out the posse comitatus act. (Or just wait; I mention this in the story too.)

The NiS Program is a federal/state program and if the state adopts it (mandatory in the world where my story is set), then the local schools must run it. Even if the school is on federal land, the school district is under state law and the commander cannot override that, since the facility is not military. He/she only has command authority over those in his command.

Your next question raises a constitutional issue and you cite part of the eighth amendment which reads in its entirety: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." As you can see from the context, this amendment has only to do with violations of law. In the NiS Program, the students are not participating because they violated any civil law; they aren't being punished for committing a crime. So no court would ever hold that the eighth amendment would apply.

Hope this explanation helps.

Glad you enjoyed the story. Niggles are always accepted and seriously considered, too. But I have comments on your two points.

On universes: My take on the NiS universe is it's like our current reality, laws and all. Including characters from Karen's world and PeregrinF's stories is a plot device, and since this is fiction, I didn't feel that it was necessary to copy every single element of those stories. Also, in the early Program, schools and communities were mostly on their own in devising their own rules. Only later did the various "rules" coalesce into the "standard" Program booklet. Since this is fiction, I used artistic license in making Karen a character in the story, as did other authors who referred to her without adopting every element of her fictional universe. In my story, her name is almost immaterial to the plot, so if it makes you more comfortable thinking of her as "Penelope Jones," be my guest.

And that brings us to your second point. You're mostly wrong about your interpretation of how "state's rights" works. The feds can only mandate that states follow federal laws in very limited cases, and the Supreme Court has defined those cases as ONLY those where interstate commerce is involved. The feds can use financial coercion in some cases (Medicaid expansion) but they can't force states to expand Medicaid. Auto insurance definitely involves interstate commerce, as the Supreme Court has ruled. Highway laws (the basis of drinking age) also involve interstate commerce (and insurance). If the feds can't show a direct link between a federal law and interstate commerce, then they can't require states to follow that law. And if a clearly demonstrable public good exists, like drinking age, then the courts won't entertain a challenge even though the law may intrude on Constitutional limits.

In education, the feds can't mandate "No child left behind" laws but they can tie funding to the law. Most commentators have stated that if the NCLB law were challenged, it would be found to be unconstitutional. It hasn't been challenged because both conservatives and liberals favor some parts of it. And it's optional if states are willing to forgo the money--but exemptions are possible and some states have gotten exemptions. But in a case of specific curricula, such as the "Common Core," the feds can't mandate anything, even if they tried to tie it to funding--if they tried, it would lose a constitutional challenge. Constitutional law is awfully complex and most people have a very simplistic view of how laws interact with the Constitution. I made my story conform to how the Program's "Social Awareness" law would work in our own society. So if the feds were to pass a law that said kids had to be naked in school, and tied education funding to that law, it would immediately be held to be unconstitutional, for the reasons I mention in the story and a number of other reasons I didn't mention.

BTW, employers requiring nudity would totally require the rewriting of the Constitution as well as a host of laws. So that aspect of the NiS universe, where that plot device is used, makes that story into fantasy. As I mentioned above, I tried to make the story I wrote as close to our current society norms as I could, given its most unlikely premises.

Thanks for your feedback.

You make a very well-reasoned analysis, actually. You didn't mention what's happening in Europe, total nudity both in public spaces (parks and beaches) and in broadcast media. Total nudity in some advertising campaigns, for another example. Sex ed in England is becoming very much like the Program: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7073678/Pupils-to-be-taught-about-sex-at-seven.html.

About nudity at work--of course, where the work involves nudity, it's expected. Nobody's forced to become a sex worker and work in a porn production. In film-making, actors have to agree in their contracts whether they'll appear nude. But a waitress at a Red Lobster or a secretary at Chase Manhattan Bank could never, under any circumstances, be forced to work nude under our current legal system.

I'd love to. I've gotten very fond of them. I need to talk to all six of the group, though, and find out if they want to share with me any more of their lives.

And it's an extremely common technique in fiction writing. It's a framing device--a frame shift. Its jarring effect is meant to pique the reader's interest and to keep them interested--asking the question "Why the heck is this here? What do these characters have to do with this story?"

I guess it worked with you. Thanks for the feedback.

Sure. Your stories are my favorites of all of the NiS universe (possibly even including mine!).

I guess a philosophical opposition to the idea that school-sponsored nudity and sexual activities is educationally valid can't really be light-hearted and I've tried to use as many of the NiS story-line tropes as possible to demonstrate that categorically. I'm trying to tell the story from the point of view that the NiS law was just adopted in our own real world, with current laws, and with people whose morals are as close as possible to current society's. And then watch as events unfold to their "natural" conclusion.

Anyway, I may have a few surprises yet to come...

So I hope you understand the meaning of FICTION and FANTASY. The willing suspension of disbelief. So you believe that in this alternate NiS universe that people willingly accept public nudity and sexual activities by minors in schools and willingly allow schools to employ pedophiles and produce child pornography. And that a simple immunization can prevent all STDs and pregnancy as well. OK, well, you've gotten that far.

In our own universe, you can read all about how the government can repress free speech and arrest and imprison people with no charges filed or chance for trials. At border crossings, federal agents exercise imprisonment, invasive searches, and confiscation with no oversight, controls, or legal challenges possible. In the southwest, this happens as far as 250 miles away from the border.

The constitution offers only as much protection as the courts will allow. In the NiS universe, as I imply and even state outright (Kevin and Denise, which I suggested be read first for context), the courts have denied the public various rights that would otherwise protect privacy and the OSA, which administers the Program, has been given extraordinary rights pertaining to the privacy of the kids in the Program. The Supreme Court agreed and upheld the NiS law.

If the US decided to censor the internet as a federal policy, believe me, the internet would be censored. Check out the internet freedom Chinese citizens have.

It's FICTION, buddy. It's meant not to be believed. It's an answer to the question, "But what if...?"

Okay?

No, the twins aren't based on anyone--wish I knew people like them, though. But their relationship and love for each other is like my daughters when they were growing up.

In the world I'm portraying, that of these characters and Kevin and Denise, the Program office is controlling all info about the Program. They aren't permitting any newspapers or broadcast media to say anything or any websites from reporting. Elected officials are being kept in the dark, even the president. And parents are in the dark too; they only know what's happening to their kids and are told by the schools that this is all according to federal laws. And the laws were challenged to the Supreme Court and upheld. That's all described, in detail, in K&D and will be further mentioned as this story progresses.

There's precedent for this happening--the NSA control over the media and media "prior restraint" orders over the press. If it works for the NSA, I made it work for the Program.

Thanks for the feedback; you're making a lot of assumptions that differ from my viewpoint on the Program itself and about when this story takes place. In a way I'm playing "fast and loose" with the way you expect a NiS story to go, but in other ways I'm not. Let me explain.

First, the "canonical" rules aren't canonical--they're a kind of guide to the way many writers have used Karen's universe idea (see below). Next, the story takes place in the early days of the Program; most of the "rules" that have evolved seem to have been generated over the course of years of operation, as Tenyari and Orblover collected in their admirable site. Some specific responses are below; a general one is at the end. (And, of course, we all know the story is a fantasy.)

You wrote: According to current canonical rules, (including the posted pamphlet), except for diplomatic immunity cases, (one of the exmption classes in the pamphlet), dual citizenship students are subject the program.

She's not matriculated or registered as an official student. All countries have treaties about how their citizens are to be treated in legal situations when they visit another country. That's in the "international treaty" exemption you mention below, btw. A minor adopted in a foreign country but not immediately brought into the U.S. remains a citizen of that country as long as they are a minor. They are eligible to become naturalized when they turn 18. Also, foreign citizens are not subject to the same kinds of laws as U.S. citizens are (tax laws are one example--those laws are applied differently). Cynthia, not being an expert in international law, was just giving her own interpretation of why Ayame was not a candidate for the Program.

You wrote in regard to no exemptions: that is patently false.

You are assuming that the "Program booklet" in this story is identical to the one on the NiS site. I've assumed that in the early days of the Program, no exemptions were given (as in Karen's story and other early ones). And that's the impression Davis wants to give. The implication that may be drawn is that the section you quote below isn't in Davis' version of the booklet, an implication permitted by how the Program Universe has evolved.

You wrote: There is a mechanism, Roger and Cyn should have applied properly, gotten rejected and sued. They then could have claimed Federal law not applicable under the 10th amendment.

Possibly they could have done that--but they were forced into it with no prior warning. So they fought back, like any Marine would....

So their participation was never an issue and thus they never needed to make a legal challenge. Almost EVERY fictional story has a point at which "that character should have done this and those consequences would have never happened..." Of course. Then it would be a different story--or no story at all.

You wrote: The base medical people would just need to document it for the record, (which they would do due to the commanders ruling).

Sure... but medical reasons were not needed, since they took themselves out of the Program. But then they looked for ways to get everyone else out, too.

You wrote: In either case they would have been tied up in court past the dates of the graduation. Given the Corps take on the program, we don't see why the JAG office would not issue a temoporary injuction preventing them from participating while the law suit was run through the courts.

Actually, only a court can issue an injunction... Sometimes that can take months, and it's well known that the person seeking an injunction may still have to do the odious thing he's trying to get out of doing. When the injunction is finally issued, the person who was forced becomes an injured party and can then sue for damages. Injunctions can be a weak or a strong legal tool, but they almost always don't work the way non-lawyers think they do.

You wrote: We agree the dystopic realites make it so. The utopic versions work differrently. See PerigrineF's series (Carl, Beth & Dee).

You refer to the Pamphlet as if it's the bible of NiS. It actually isn't. Here's the intro from that page (emphasis added)

The Pamphlet

This is the 'pamphlet' students are given when they join The Program. Well... It is actually a guide and a mix of different rules from different authors, an attempt at pulling together a roughly consistant [sic] theme. Not every story follows this exactly, and even some that claim a pamphlet like this have scenes where it gets violated, ignored, followed only in letter, or carried out in a darker or lighter 'spirit of interpretation'. A lot of NiS is full of tricky double speak, for either good or ill, keep that in mind when reading this.

And another quote from the Program Analysis (emphasis is in original):

The closer a story sticks to those rules the closer it is to what readers are likely to consider 'canon'. Note however that there is no actual 'canon' that stories are required to stick to, there is more of a 'loose range' and a sort of 'we know it when we see it'. ...
Every writer brings a unique point of view to the series. Such diversity is encouraged. The Naked in School Universe should NOT be considered a rigid template. If all the stories are exactly the same, it will only get stale.

Concluding this reply, I'm exploring the fringes of the universe, in its early years, as the social experiment is getting going and its fictional proponents are working out the details. As you will see, the story goes in a direction very few other authors have taken.

I hope you'll like it. Or maybe not.

Great comments! You really are into the issues I'm exploring in the story--and will be exploring as the story progresses. And in your comments below, you've zeroed in on some of the themes that this story will soon take up.

Thanks for citing the "emancipated minor" story. You do know that I wrote that one? Kevin and Denise? It's halfway between utopic and dystopic, actually--bridges the two "-topic moods" by having a hero who's firmly opposed to the Program find ways to allow others to accept and even enjoy it. Glad you liked it; it was fun to write.

However--I need to point out several things about the law. First, a constitutional challenge can indeed go very rapidly. Even being resolved in a few months. If a plaintiff files in a federal district court and if the matter is clear-cut--a straightforward factual issue, then after a quick hearing, a summary judgment can be issued quite quickly and has the force of overturning the law in that district. Only if the matter is appealed does it go directly to the Supreme Court. If they don't agree to take up the matter, then the district ruling stands; the law is unconstitutional. People in other federal court districts can cite that overturning decision as legal precedent and other federal districts usually soon follow. Unless they don't, and then the Supreme Court is pretty much forced to resolve the matter. (Which is happening right now with the same-sex marriage issue, which has torn through the federal court system with amazing speed.)

Next, civilian schools on federal property can either be under local control OR run by the DoD. Roger & Cynthia's high school is on federal land but is entirely managed by the local government (the school district). In cases like this, the military has absolutely no voice in how the school is operated. (Same with DoD-operated schools; the local commander can't affect school policy--maybe just a little is all). I'm not aware of any issues in cases involving DoD schools or ones on federal land where disputes have had to be resolved in court. Certainly not in federal court; those courts lack jurisdiction since education laws are state laws and any dispute would need to be brought in a state court. Military courts can only try matters of military discipline under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Only servicemen and women can be tried in those courts. Another issue is one of standing. That involves the question of who has the right to bring a lawsuit. In a challenge of a school rule, a commander or even a military service, such as the Marines, would definitely lack standing. So only parents could sue; in the NiS universe they did--and lost at the Supreme Court under the Fifth Amendment privacy issue.

So the base commander has no voice in how the school runs and the school board here, as does the principal, believes that the feds have the right to dictate that they run the Program. They see no need to suspend anything. And DoD agency cannot sue a state entity on something like how a school is operated. Most issues that pertain to the morale and behavior of troops and families at military installations is left entirely up to the local commander and his scope of authority extends only to his command, and by extension, their families. So by policy, the general can't sue anyone and can only order that those under his command behave in a certain way.

Since the school was built and is managed by a state entity, they can remodel as they see fit. Even if it's on federal land. Those rules are governed by formal agreements--leases--and they are extremely common all over the U.S., where public and private entities lease federal land, buildings, and facilities and are given free rein over the use of the property.

Bathroom cameras a problem for the parents? That's a pretty tame use of videos. What about videotaping classroom sex acts and posting them on the school's website? Sure, parents knew. So what? It's the Program; parents can't do a thing about it.

I tried to make the story follow current law and policy as closely as possible and have my characters operate within our current legal framework.

Hey, this is fun; thanks for writing!

Sounds like you've been reading my mind. Stay tuned for future chapters as I (and Roger and Cynthia) explore the ideas you've mentioned...

But there'll be some surprises along the way, I hope.

In the real world, everything that happens has a specific cause. Nothing happens randomly -- even the weather isn't random. I tried to make my stories conform to the realities of causality. Everything that happens in my stories has a basis in reality, either a fictional, constructed reality, or a reality derived from our own culture. So the OSA's sending sociopaths to schools happened for a reason--they were chosen to accomplish the goals of the criminal organization that took it over. They were to cause extreme fear of the Program among the kids to provide the cover for the kidnapings mentioned in K&D. Who better to terrify kids about being molested but the molesters themselves? Yes, in K&D, the discredited OSA's function was taken over by the USDofEd.

And VP Winters is simply carrying out the mandates of the state education department, which had decided to continue the Program unchanged. So the local school board has no choice, they have to follow state policy. Schools are NOT independent entities which can pick and choose which state policies and curricula they want.

It's also very difficult to sue a public entity and prevail. In some jurisdictions, claimants may even have to get the entity to agree to be sued (although this requirement has been gradually disappearing around the country). Specifically, successfully suing a school over a wrongful act must show that school employees acted outside the course and scope of their employment. So it's questionable whether a lawsuit by a parent against a school would proceed to trial in a case where their child became infected by sitting on an uncovered seat or even if another kid's touching caused the infection. The duty to supervise that the law mandates for teachers can't be required to be so fine-grained that staff would be expected to monitor every kid's interaction with every other kid. So if one kid infects another by touching with unclean hands, under modern law, the school district would have zero liability and any such lawsuit would be thrown out of court. If it could be demonstrated that lack of supervision of students caused MULTIPLE instances of such injuries, then a suit might be allowed to proceed.

In short, unless one has an extremely strong case (or extraordinarily deep pockets), he wouldn't even be able to get legal representation in the first place. And the school's lawyer could always attempt to get the judge to dismiss the case, usually on very narrow grounds. A judge will not allow a suit to proceed under tort law unless the claimant can show, very clearly, that the three legal principles of Duty (standard of care), Proximate Cause, and Damages were violated. Psychological injuries are almost never even considered in modern jurisprudence.

As a lawyer friend of mine once said, "Anyone can sue anyone about anything. But very few suits will make it past the preliminary hearing."

My story assumes that a "program pamphlet" exists but the NiS universe doesn't REQUIRE that everything in that collection of "rules" (assembled over the years from many, many stories and posted on the ASSTR NiS website) be followed by every author! What's important is that stories be internally consistent.

My perusal of a number of NiS stories show that, in those stories, the schools' implementation of the Program locally have lots of differences from that generic "pamphlet." Since penetration of a woman's vagina is defined as rape in the criminal codes of every jurisdiction in the country (regardless of what the penetrating object is), and federal laws cannot invalidate local laws unless very specific circumstances apply, I included the no-penetration rule in my story.

There are two ways to change/eliminate laws. Legislative repeal and judicial overturning. Either method works. Reorganizing a government body which administers the law does not change or invalidate the law.

In our own world, additional penalties (Example: use of firearm in committing a felony) are all up to states. There can't be any federal law that imposes an additional (federal) penalty on a state felony. My stories follow our own world's jurisprudence. Cynthia refers to a CA law after she stops the rape attempt in the Merritt classroom. Other authors have used enhanced penalties for offenses committed against Program participants.

The published one does have rules that make the punishments more severe for attacking a program person.